Tuesday Notes...

Like it or not, fansubbing will always have its upside and downside. From my point of view, I still think it increases sales of obscure titles. I discovered a lot of series post-licensing through fansubs and I try to collect them *legally* whenever I have the resources. Heck, I allocate a monthly budget for my DVD stash. And unless you have tons of money, one who wouldn't just randomly buy anything in sight, right?

But then again, it's different for everyone since some anime fans would plain archive the fansubs instead of buying the DVDs. Truthfully, a couple of years back I was that way too. But I think fans mature as they immerse themselves more into this subculture and learn to support (and be totally addicted) their favorite titles.

I know the companies are just *protecting* their properties but still, I think they should first target those who profit from piracy instead of the fansub groups.

Ugg, I've commented on Slashdot.org a lot already, so I'm kinda sick of the topic. I can sum it up a bit though:

This happenned back in December, it's been almost two months, nothing has been heard from Media Factory since. It's a non-story at this point. Different sites/groups made their own choices and that's that. Wannabefansubs is still subbing School Rumble, AnimeSuki has put all of Media Factory's titles on its licensed list and won't list them. Media factory seems to be happy with this or we'd have heard more. Media Factory seemed to be primarily concerned with KimiNozo and Akane Maniax.

The CNet article feels more like it's about ADV's views on the fansub community than about what happened with Media Factory. ADV has already proven itself quite hostile to fansubs in the past 1-2 years. Contrary to what it says in the article ADV does not "contact the person and ask them to stop" serving titles they have licensed. They always send a DMCA takedown notice to the person's ISP first. Take this however you want, but given that and past shenanigans ADV has pulled they are the ONLY US anime distributer I boycott. If I want their titles I'll buy R2s to own it, and find fansubs so I can enjoy it fully. I will not allow a penny of my money to go to ADV's coffers though. (For those fairly new to things, search Google groups in rec.arts.anime.misc for Evangelion, Nadesico and Overlays to see the big stink about them. Note once you do the recent reissue of Evangelion (Platinum) addresses the issues fans complained about in those posts, years ago.)

Fansubs have been around longer than ADV. They'll outlive ADV most likely. Even if ADV and every other US anime distributer starts going after sharers and bittorrent sites the subs will continue to be done, released and shared. It's like the whole thing with the RIAA suing file sharers, you can't stop it, it's too late, it will always be with us. Companies have to adapt to this and find ways to be profitable. Japanese companies are most definitely aware of fansubs, there's only been two incidents where they asked/demanded someone stop distributing their titles fansubbed. One was in December with Media Factory. The other was a few years back and I forget the details, but it too was isolated.

One thing I'd like to mention is I've been trying to think of a way to take the "open source" anime/manga translation movement and create a model that distributes anime titles normally (DVD, VHS, Cartoon Network), yet also allows for Bittorrent, etc. I believe whoever can figure out a way to do this will have a company successfuly beyond any we see today. ADV will look like an ant compared to it. I have many of the details worked out, but not all. I'd be glad to hear from others about it, and I'd love to hear from those involved in fansubbing/scanslating about what they'd think about having their work used in such a manner. Please don't assume this would take the same track as open source software like Linux where most community contributers do so freely, but please tell me how you'd feel both ways (freely contributing, getting something in return (not necessarily money, but something, sorry to be vague, I've not sorted this one out yet)).

I'll have a blog of my own soon I hope, gotta figure out a good hosting provider and a domain name I like. :) Then I can stop doing such huge comments on poor Matthew's blog. ^_^;;;

Duh, hard to contact me without an address, fansub.stuff.maestro4000@neverbox.com

True, most of what's useful to say has already been said on the subject, I suppose. I won't go on any farther than I have, but I can correlate closely with Matthew. Fansubs of Card Captor Sakura were what got me into anime (for *real*)in the first place.

I have somewhere around 80 or so DVDs myself, and I'd say at least half are from series I first saw fansubbed (it's an interesting feeling, throwing out fansubs for DVDs. Am I enjoying harming the environment...? :) ). Getting back into the habit of watching fansubs (and now raws), that's only going to increase in the future. I've got somewhere around 20 volumes of manga, but even that is starting to pile up.

I haven't gone as far as Maestro and started intentionally boycotting ADV, though, come to think of it, I haven't bought many DVDs from them recently.

I tend to react strongly to companies that mistreat their customers (especially when it's me) and boycott them. Even so there's not exactly a huge list of companies I won't buy from. I'm also fair, I'll reevaluate my stance if they clean their act up, for instance Tokyopop. I boycotted them for a long time, partly over the Sailor Moon switcheroo (they switched it out of Mixxine to Smile _after_ everyone had renewed their Mixxine subs) and mainly over a buying experience that was quite hideous. They finally shaped up, realized listening to and courting the more hardcore market was a good thing financially and started the whole non-flipped, non-Americanized, non-names-changed Manga trend. Most of the translated Manga I own now is from Tokyopop in fact, I think I'm approaching 100 volumes total of translated manga, about 40-50 raw. (And I can't read them. Doh. ^_^;;;)

Actually you guys have more DVDs than I do, but that's largely due to my losing my job thanks to the economy in 2002 and spending two years hunting for a new one while I worked at Wal-mart. DVDs were a luxury I couldn't afford. :( (And most of the manga was bought used at $5 a volume because I could actually afford a few volumes a month that way.) Having got back into the anime scene again though, and having a decent job as well, I can already tell you several recent series I'll be buying. If they get picked up by someone other than ADV I'll get the US release, otherwise the R2s. (And Air is at the top of that list! ^_^)

I can also honestly say that with a show I like, I'll buy it more than once if need be (or just to get extra goodies, better quality release, etc.) I have both LaserDisc releases of the Oh My Goddess OVAs (there's different artwork on each release's covers), I have Kiki's Delivery Service on LaserDisc, VHS (both the sub and the dub) and finally on DVD. I'd buy an HD version of it as well if one is released. My first fansub was the Sailor Moon R movie, and I bought it on DVD as soon as it was released. ^_^

I've currently got 230 or so anime DVDs [at an average price of $20 a disc built up over 2 - 3 years] so I'd say I've done my fair share of contributing... So much stuff comes out these days that I have to be very picky about what I buy [as in I absolutely have to love the series or I won't buy it] because of that and even then I end up with a few new ones every month @_@

I wouldn't be doing this at all if it weren't for the cursed fan subbers. :D [j/k by the way on the cursed part. ^^]

Generally I think the model I like best is one that some of the groups are doing now. They pull stuff once it actually hits the shelves here. Which is kind of nice when some companies like to license stuff and then sit on it for several months. [I can think of a couple of newer series that have been like that, and when it is a good one I want to see the ending not wait 2 years. @_@].

I gotta admit, it's always really disappointing when an official subbing is of far inferior quality to a fansub. Unfortunately, this happens fairly often. On a happier note, can't wait to see what you whip up Maestro4k!

I really should mention too that I've contributed greatly directly to the Japanese companies that produce all the anime. :) When I took a vacation there in 2001, I spent $4000. Roughly $1000 of that went to food and various things I bought that didn't support the companies directly (Doujinshi for instance, or gifts for friends and family that weren't anime related), but that leaves a good $3000 I spent on anime goodies. :) I'm sure that put more money directly into the pockets of the Japanese companies than if I'd spent $3000 on US anime DVD releases. ^_^ I think Clamp ended up with a large chunk of it too... Darn my CCS obsession! (OK, not darn it, I like it actually, I'm sure Matthew can relate. ^_^)

unfortunately, IMHO, the one who is going to suffer most is the ones living outside US.

yeah, i know this has been talked to death too, but its sad to say that without fansubs, the rest of the world couldnt enjoy anime other than sucky HK-subs. unless there is a worldwide company that is willing to distribute licensed, cheap anime to the masses, i dont think fansubbers will go away. ( i'm guessing about half of the fansubbers team are from outside the US?)

my two cents, the guy from malaysia

It's unlikely you'll ever find a company licensing and distributing anime worldwide, it's a morass of conflicting laws and you have often have to negotiate rights for each country. That's why most companies stick to one country or at most a couple and nothing more. :(

Right now I suspect most fansub groups consider themselves US based, but many members are not in the US. It's becoming quite the international effort with translators, timers, encoders, distributers, etc. all potentially in different countries and often have never met in real life. :)

hmm, good to see a fellow Malaysian here. well the news doesn't really affect us much here in Malaysia due to the fact that anime here can be said to be quite plentiful and fast, but totally lacking in quality.

here, we get our anime in VCD or DVD formats mainly due to HK suppliers.one thing they have is speed as we can usually get some anime within 6 months or more from their release in Japan.

but on the other hand, they suck at subbing anime and well, their products aren't exactly original and faithful copies of the real products.

Fansubs on the other hand, allow a faithful retelling and understanding of the anime.i've personally preferred fansubs (although now i've switched to watching raw) as they really helped me learn Japanese better that sucky HK subs.

I do own some of those DVD'S, about 20 or so. but sometimes, it's really hard to make the choice when you know that you're watching something you're hardly understanding.

Being an ex-fansubber, I'd say that I worry less about the big companies than each other....

But then I've made my own contribution of buying anime DVDs, or at least I try. Having very little pocket money each month after all the bills doesn't help much either. Also, most of the releases here don't catch me as being great either. Its only been lately that they started releasing DVDs here that have the japanese track in the 5.1 Dolby DTS format, and even those are rare to see. I say if I want a DVD, I want it in better quality visually and audibly. Take the releases of the special edition of Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex. I mainly try to alot funds for them just for the incredible 5.1 Dolby DTS japanese track. Not to mention the incredible image quality.

I just feel that the industry is still growing here in the states, and it takes a while to develop a "corporate culture" of sorts. So, just viewing the whole anti-fansubbing mentality as just growing pains for a few companies. Kind of like going through puberty with the raging hormones. Its one of those things that will pass. Also, they can't expect the sales of anime related stuff to skyrocket overnight either. Pokemon and digimon, and most of the massively televised stuff were designed to sell products, which is why they are so profitable. Other stuff, like say Gantz, you can't possibly expect that to sell in the same fashion. So, alot of these "growing pains" come from illusions of grandeur. In the long run, it still took the video game industry a decade or 2 to get to where it is now, and anime has been around for how long? They just have to realize that they'll need to tough it out until the population of kids that grew up watching anime to get a job and get the financial capability to consume the way the industry wants. That's what happened to the video game industry anyways.

So, taking all those into account, I really don't care what anyone in the anime industry here in the states say. It'll be another 10 years before anime will become high profit business here in the states at least, just like anywhere else in the world. The music industry at least "some sort of numbers" to show that sales have dropped. Wonder if ADV has any of the sort. At least the music industry has stuff to rationalize on about file sharing, though, they have a bad habit of only showing people half the truth, but that's still better than ADV making false statements about problems in the industry (maybe more like "ungrounded").

I think you've really hit the true "problem" on the head Sai. I also noticed that while ADV was complaining, it wasn't that sales had dropped, but that they had remained flat. Basically they're complaining that the market's not expanding and trying to blame that on fansubs, which is just silly. It's expanded from nothing to what it is today with fansubs available the entire time. While fansubs are available faster nowadays because of digital delivery, anime distributers are releasing series faster as well, so it's still about the same time difference.

I'm not surprised that ADV is doing this though, they have a long history of being, well, jerks. While they like to _claim_ they listen to the anime community, it's just lip service. Sure they listen (or pretend to), but they never actually act on what the community wants. I find it particularly galling that they essentially ignored the complaints about text overlays in Evangelion at the time, then years later come back with a platinum release that addresses those complaints. Of course they didn't offer any sort of trade in, if you want it without overlays, you have to pay full price -- again.

There's plenty of US anime distributers who treat the community with respect. Animeigo, for example, has a history of offering discounts for trade ins. When I got the Kimagure Orange Road DVDs, I could have traded in my LD set for a pretty substantial discount. I decided to pass since I had only paid $50 for them and they had nice larger artwork, but a lot of people took them up on it.

What's really sad is that the Cartoon Network, who doesn't distribute any anime directly, has done more to increase the market for anime and anime goods than any of the US anime distributers have. If ADV spent as much time trying to promote and increase the anime market as they do harassing fans they'd be much better off financially. Sadly I doubt they'll ever realize this.